Victorian Bonnie & Clyde: Lavinia & John Fisher
SEASON 3 : EPISODE 39
JUNE 5, 2024
The subject of tonight’s story is often cited as “America’s first female serial killer.” Now, whether or not that is true, any story that could make such a claim is a story worth telling. In my opinion though, what we really have here, is the story of a true Victorian era Bonnie and Clyde.
This is the story of Lavinia and John Fisher.
Follow along on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube @agoodnightforamurder and subscribe where ever you listen to Podcasts.
Listen via Apple, Spotify, Google, Amazon, or where ever you listen podcasts.
The bonus content on Patreon for this episode is further lore and the hauntings associated with the story of Lavinia Fisher.
This is the story of Dr. William Palmer.
-
ARTICLES
Poisonous oleander: recognising & treating symptoms
Lavinia Fisher, America's 'first female serial killer' that wasn't
The Legend Of Lavinia Fisher, The Woman Said To Be America’s First Female Serial Killer
Creepy Carolina: The legend of Lavinia Fisher and the Old Charleston Jail
VICTORIAN SOCIETY TIP SOURCES
“Coming Out” During the Early Victorian Era; about debutantes
The London Season Presentation at Court
-
INTRO
Hello everyone, welcome to A Good Night for a Murder, a Victorian true crime podcast.
My name is Kim, and the subject of tonight’s story is often cited as “America’s first female serial killer.” Now, whether or not that is true, any story that could make such a claim is a story worth telling. In my opinion though, what we really have here, is the story of a true Victorian era Bonnie and Clyde.
This is the story of Lavinia and John Fisher.
But first, a Victorian society tip.
TIP
You may not know, because it’s the year 2024, but we are smack in the middle of Social Season!
I’m not just talking about being able to hang out on your neighbors patio in the evening because the weather finally started to turn
The Social Season meant something very, very specific to Victorians
The London social season mostly occurred between the months of April to June, but related events started as soon as Parliament returned in January, and could continue through July
They did have a hard stop though on August 12, which was referred to as “the Glorious Twelfth”
This was because it was the start of the shooting season for red grouse! (which is a bird)
Open season for other game would soon follow and the men had to get back to their hunting lodges!
The Social Season would open with presenting debutantes to society
The word “debutante” is French for “female beginner,” and to be a debutante presented to society, meant that girl was now eligible to be married
Now, the right time for a young lady to make her debut was when she had completed her education, and reached an age of maturity, as determined by her parents
This criteria was met when a woman had:
Learned to speak several languages,
played piano and sang,
painted in watercolours and oils,
did needlepoint,
Had memorized every member of the monarchy, peerage, and gentry, including their family background,
learned classical history and geography
Was prepared fulfill the responsibilities of a poised and elegant hostess,
And was ready to become a mother.
For some girls this, meant they could be introduced as young as age 12 or 14!
That did not mean they necessarily would be married at that age though…
There were standards of how long one should court and be engaged for - more on that in a minute…
First things first… debutantes had to prepare for their coming out
Girls who were:
in any way related to the royal family,
or wealthy daughters of clergy, military or naval officers, barristers, or physicians, would first be presented at the Royal court before the Queen
Presentation of debutantes or the “coming out” ceremony happened at St. James’s Palace - now Buckingham Palace - just after Easter
It was a 2-3 day event where 100 - 200 girls a day would line up in their carriages at court and wait hours upon hours to be presented before the Queen
Each girl had to be sponsored or presented by a woman who had been presented before them, and the higher the aristocratic rank of the sponsor, the better
This was usually their mother, grandmother, step-mother, or someone else known by the family
This “coming out” ritual began back in the 17th and 18th centuries
It was suspended during WWI and WWII, and then Queen Elizabeth II did away with the ceremony entirely in 1958
Preparation for presentation at court was rigorous
First and foremost, there was the gown
A debutante gown was often fancier than a wedding gown, and sometimes intentionally designed to be simplified later to be converted to a wedding dress
White was traditional, but ivory or light pink were permissible
Gowns were to be short sleeved with a low neckline, and were to have long trains
It was custom to wear a tulle headdress with a long veil and ostrich feathers - 3 feathers was the right number, according to Queen Victoria…
The gown should be tastefully accessorized with slippers, a fan, and jewelry
As important as the gown, was a young ladies’ walk, curtsy, and graceful exit - as one was not allowed to turn their back on the Queen, so ladies would have to walk backwards out of the room.
After their presentation at court, their family would throw a huge ball, pulling out all the stops, where the new debutante and their sponsor would receive guests.
Members of the aristocracy presented at court were not the only ones who got to be debutantes though
There were just as many, if not more, “common girls” whose families were members of society that participated in the social season
Those girls had official entrances in to society as well,
the only difference being they were not permitted to attend parties and events at court,
They could attend everything else though
These girls usually marked their entrance to society in one of the following ways based mostly on their wealth
First, they would also hold a full ball where they would receive guests
Or, hold an afternoon tea with dance, which was usually equal in size to a full ball but a bit less elaborate
Or, they might host a dance where the debutante was presented to just few of her mother’s closets friends.
Host a small tea without music
Or, finally, simply send out visiting cards with the mother’s and daughter’s names, letting everyone who received them know that that young lady was now eligible to be called on bachelors
Social season itself allowed for debutantes to attend up to 60 parties, 50 balls, 30 dinners and 25 breakfasts in one season
It was also appropriately referred to as the “marriage mart” or “market”
Gentlemen were now allowed to “call” on the young ladies
Men would attend balls, invite a young ladies’ father or guardian to visit, have dinner with each other’s families, and promenade or take walks together - always chaperoned, of course!
A typical day for a young debutante began at about noon when she would wake, have breakfast in her room, and get dressed
She would then attend a concert or go for a carriage ride or the like
Dinner was at about 8 pm
Afterward she’d attend the opera,
Then attend at least three or four parties until about 5 a.m
It was also important to go to church and church functions so one could be seen looking pious and pretty
A young debutante was not allowed to attend any of these events alone though, they were to always have a chaperone present to ensure all social rules were followed
And the rules were plentiful…
To list them all would require a whole other podcast, so I’ll just share a few important ones here with you now:
A lady must never approach people of higher rank, unless being introduced by a mutual friend.
People of lesser rank were always introduced to people of higher rank, and then only if the higher-ranking person had given his or her permission.
Even after being introduced, the person of higher rank did not have to maintain the acquaintance. They could ignore, or 'cut' the person of lower rank.
A single woman could never address a gentleman without an introduction.
A single woman could never walk out alone.
If she had progressed to the stage of courtship in which she walked out with a gentleman, they always walked apart.
A gentleman could only offer his hand over rough spots,
A proper women never rode alone in a closed carriage with a man who wasn't a relative.
She would never call upon an unmarried gentleman at his place of residence.
She could not receive a man at home if she was alone.
And lastly, for now, a lady never looked back after anyone in the street, or turned to look at others at church, the opera, etc.
Now, some families would arrange marriages even before a young lady’s debut,
In that event a young couple might begin courting right away
Courting could take years, and depended usually on the age of the couple
Before 1823 the legal age to be married in Britain was 21 years old for both men and women
After 1823, a boy could marry as young as 14, and a girl as young as 12 without parental consent
The Queen’s eldest daughter was actually engaged at age 14, and married at age 17 in 1855
Despite this, most women did not marry until about the age of 18 - 23
Towards the end of the 19th century in particular, women did wait a bit later to be married, but this mostly had to do with advancements in education
The education required for them to be a well rounded member of society simply took longer to complete
Likewise, men often preferred to wait until they were more financially stable and could support a wife and family before they decided to marry - this is one reason we often see older husbands and younger wives during this era
Now whether a couples’ marriage was arranged by their family or their relationship evolved naturally, the minimum expectation for courting and an engagement was 6 months for each
Either way, after a young lady’s debut to society, the expectation was that she would be married within 2 - 3 years, lest she run the risk of still being unmarried by the age of 30 and becoming a spinster!
ANNOUNCEMENTS
CONTENT WARNING
A Good Night for a Murder is a true crime podcast that does cover stories including death, violence, sexual assault, and other adult themes.
Please take care while listening.
EPISODE
Lavinia Fisher was born in 1793, likely right in Charleston, South Carolina, in the US, where our story takes place.
Who was she before she was Mrs. Fisher?
We don’t know, that has been lost to history
By the time we meet Lavinia in the year 1819, she is already in her mid-20s and married to husband, John Fisher, also of Charleston, South Carolina.
Together, the pair lived in and managed what was known as Six Mile Wayfarer House
There was also 4 Mile House, 5 Miles House…
Maybe 7 and 8 Mile house?
Point being, these houses served sort of as rest stops on roads between towns where travelers could stop for a meal, rest, and tend to their horses
They were named 4, 5, and 6 Mile House because they were 4, 5, or 6 miles outside of town
Now Lavinia and John seemed to be affiliated with 2 of the houses in particular
6 Mile, as we already mentioned, and 5 Mile House
Details are hazy, but it seems the Lavinia and John were part of a gang of crooks operating along the road outside of Charleston
Rumors began to swirl that that stretch of road was particularly unsafe due to highway robbers,
Plus those that you met at the houses were known to cheat and scam visitors during poker games.
Recently, a cow had also gone missing from a local farmers field.
There had been several especially alarming reports as of late about travelers who disappeared out that way, where their last known location had been Lavinia and John’s 6 Mile House
The sheriff didn’t necessarily investigate - per se….
But he did think about the reports a little bit!
And what he thought was that without more evidence, he had nothing to look in to
He knew Lavinia and John and regarded them as a honest, hard working, lovely couple
Plus Lavinia was quite pretty…
The local villagers had clearly begun to suspect otherwise though…
They’d heard stories…
They’d heard that if a traveler stopped at 6 Mile House, whether they intended to or not, Lavinia would use her feminine charms to convince them to spend the night
She would cook them a nice dinner, and sit and talk with them about what brought them there, where were they going, what all did they have in their wagon, and what they did for work…
If she suspected they might be wealthy, she would brew them a special cup of tea after their meal, then send them up to their room.
The tea though, was actually spiked with oleander.
And, once the unsuspecting victim had passed out from the effects of the drug, Lavinia would ransack their room for anything of value, while John would stab or beat them to death, right there in bed.
Some had even heard tales of the beds in the rooms flipping over and dumping unconscious victims through the floor in to the basement where the floor was lined with spikes!
In February 1819, locals grew tired of the authorities not taking them seriously and decided to take matters in to their own hands.
A vigilante gang marched on 6 Mile House and ran the Fishers and their criminal cohorts out
They left behind one guy named David Ross to guard the house and prevent the criminals from returning.
This was a bad plan…
Unless there’s something left out from all of the sources I read, it sounded like Ross would easily be outnumbered if the criminal gang returned.
The next day, that is exactly what happened.
Two gang members forced their way in to the house and attacked Ross
He surrendered and asked if he could just retrieve his personal belongings from inside, then he would go quietly.
His attackers said, no, everything in this house is ours now, and you need to get out.
By this time, likely realizing there was only one guy left behind to hold the house, the remaining members of the gang had returned including Lavinia and John, plus another man and a woman.
The men started to attack Ross further.
During this assault he locked eyes with Lavinia and pleaded with her to help him - call them off, talk some reason in to them…
If he thought appealing to Lavinia’s nurturing side as a woman would help him though, he was wrong
Instead Lavinia allegedly choked him and smashed his head against a window.
Fortunately, Ross managed to escape and ran to alert the authorities.
At this time, John, Lavinia, and the rest of the gang had successfully regained control of 6 Mile House.
Only a few hours later, a traveler named John Peeples, who evidently has not heard the rumors about 6 Mile House, stopped in to ask for a room for the night.
Here is what probably did NOT happen next… but I’m going to tell it to you anyway…
Allegedly, Lavinia initially told him there were no rooms available, but he’s still welcome to come in for a meal
While he ate, she questioned him relentlessly about why he was on the road, what he did for a living, where was headed, and more.
Then, she announced that you know what? She was confident she could rearrange some things, and find him a room…
Peeples found her interrogation and the sudden availability of a room suspicious, and was afraid he was being set up for something.
But he decided to play it cool and finish his meal.
After dinner, Lavinia presented him with a cup of tea to drink before bedtime.
Had Lavinia asked him first if he would have liked some tea, he would of declined.
Peeples did not like the taste of tea and never drank it.
But, not wanting to seem rude, he accepted the cup and when Lavinia wasn’t looking, he poured it out instead of drinking it.
If the rumors about Lavinia’s tea at 6 Mile House were true, this one act certainly saved John Peeple’s life.
After dinner, Peeple’s retreated to the room Lavinia had freed up for him, but he decided he was going to do his best to stay awake as much as he could through the night, should there be some sort of foul play afoot.
So instead of laying down in bed, he posted up in a chair by the door.
The day had been long though, and he did doze off at some point, but woke to a sound of what he discovered to be the entire bed collapsing in to the floor!
At that point Peeples scrambled out the window to escape, and rode all the way to Charleston to report what had happened.
Now John Peeples did have an incident at 6 Mile House,
But it probably didn’t go down quite as like what I just described.
Other sources share this version of events, which I think you’ll agree is more probable.
Now remember that Peeples showed up only mere hours after the 6 Mile House crew had regained their property.
They were feeling bold, and triumphant.
So when unsuspecting John Peeple’s wandered up, innocently looking for a place to rest, the gang just outright jumped him.
All in all, he said there were about 9 or 10 people who confronted him, including a woman
He managed to escape with his wagon, but was pursued by a pair of criminals who caught up to him and robbed him at gunpoint on the road.
He managed to make it Charleston where he was unable to identify robbers, but was able to identify John, Lavinia, and a third man, named William Hayward, from a photo lineup.
Before this, all the sheriff’s office had were reports of suspicions about Lavinia and John’s involvement in crimes allegedly taking place around 6 Mile House,
but now, they had not one, but two positive identifications from David Ross and John Peeples implicating Lavinia and John Fisher.
Police were dispatched and surrounded 6 Mile House with weapons drawn.
The gang inside was posted up at windows and doors also with weapons drawn, prepared to defend their property.
But, before tensions could reach a breaking point, John Fisher surrendered his self and the rest of the gang, for fear that Lavinia would be harmed in the fight.
The couple plus two other men and one woman were taken in to custody.
The premise was searched, and some say they found the skeletons of several victims under the bedroom in the basement.
This is probably a sensationalized version of events, but what they did find, were the remains of a recently slaughtered cow
This is assumed to be the cow that was recently reported stolen by a local farmer.
After the search, 6 Mile House and all of its outbuildings are burned to the ground along with everything inside.
When John was interrogated by police, he provided the names of all of the other gang members in exchange for Lavinia’s safety.
Despite this, he and Lavinia were charged with common assault and assault with the intent to murder, while the others who were brought in with them were released on bail.
At the arraignment Lavinia and John pleaded “not guilty” and a trial was scheduled for May 1819.
At the trial, they were found guilty of common assault and assault with the intent to murder against David Ross, and additionally found guilty of highway robbery against John Peoples.
This is disconcerting since from what I researched, Peeples was unable to identify the two men who actually robbed him,
so I don’t understand how Lavinia and John Fisher wind up taking the fall for it.
Unfortunately, it’s known that the justice system liked to play it a little too fast and loose back in the early days.
What makes this especially unfortunate, is that highway robbery was considered a capital crime for which the penalty is death.
Lavinia and John appealed the court’s decision, after which many prominent citizens including members of the clergy ask for a reprieve on their behalf.
Remember before this the Fishers enjoyed a very positive reputation.
And the pair were actually granted a reprieve until January 1820, which is a whole 8 months away.
While the Fishers were being held they met with Reverend Richard Furman to help prepare their souls for their judgment day.
John was receptive to his counsel.
But Lavina was thoroughly annoyed by him.
She did not feel like she had to prepare her soul for anything, because she was not going to be executed - she just didn’t believe it was going to happen
Her reasoning was that there were numerous pleas for leniency being made on her behalf, she was innocent and was sure someone would come to their senses about it, and she was a woman after all.
While America had executed women before, it was way less common than executions of men.
Often times women would receive lesser sentences for the same crimes men would hang for, just because they were women.
So she’s not actually completely delusional in her thinking, but it does seem like she’s failing a bit to read the writing on the wall…
For all of Lavinia’s confidence though that she would make her way out of this situation, the Fishers were in this together, and on September 13, 1819, the couple tried to escape.
As a married couple, both Lavinia and John were housed in a single 6 x 8 foot cell.
They crafted a rope from prison linens and tried to climb free.
John went first, but their rope broke leaving Lavinia trapped inside.
So he walked around front of the prison and asked to be let back in…
Just kidding, I don’t know if he actually did that or not,
but he did refuse to leave Lavinia behind, so he allowed his self to be recaptured.
Eventually, their appeal was rejected and the pair were sentenced to be hanged on February 4, 1820.
At the time, there was actually a law that stated a married women could not be executed.
Due to this law, the executioner expressed some hesitancy, after which he was coldly advised to just hang John first,
That would leave Lavinia a widow, and there were no laws against executing widows.
On their execution day the couple walked arm in arm from the prison to the waiting coach.
Some say Lavinia insisted on wearing her wedding dress to the execution, hoping someone would see her beauty and marry her on the spot, saving her from the gallows.
This claim is unsubstantiated.
What a handful of sources do describe though, is that as the carriage drew closer to the gallows, John began to grow pale and tremble, and cling to Lavinia.
Lavinia though, appeared unbothered.
It’s said that she still believed, right up until the very last minutes, that she would be pardoned.
A crowd of about 2,000 surrounded the gallows that day.
It’s reported that John solemnly mounted the scaffold, but Lavinia refused.
It seemed like it had finally hit her that this was happening.
The constables had to strong arm her out of the carriage and carry her on to the scaffold, Lavinia all the while professing her innocence and begging and pleading with the crowd to please help her.
When no one reacted, her pleas turned to anger, and she started cursing and screaming obscenities at the crowd, and damning the Governor to hell.
Her husband reportedly turned to her, and begged her to please, make her peace with God now, this was their end.
But his words had no effect and Lavinia’s famous last words are said to be:
“Cease! I will have none of it. Save your words for others that want them.
But if you have a message you want sent to Hell, give it to me; I’ll carry it.”
Then, she jumped from the scaffold on her own, ending it herself as to deny her captors the satisfaction.
Intense, right?
By another account though, The Charleston Courier reported that at the very end, the couple embraced just before the platform door dropped, and the sentence was carried out.
It was said that Lavinia died “almost immediately,” but John was witnessed to struggle for several moments before going limp.
Lavinia and John were both buried in a potters field near the Old City Jail.
You may find claims of Lavinia’s burial at The Unitarian Church at 4 Archdale Street, but these are unfounded.
So, we have reached the point where I’m going to unpack for you which parts of this story were true, and which were not.
I mean, if you’re a critical thinker you probably spotted some parts along the way that are just too sensational to be true, and you’d probably be right, but let’s take it from the top…
First, the poisoned tea bit…
There is zero evidence to support that any of that truly happened.
Were the Fishers associated with a gang of highway robbers that enjoyed holding up travelers and cheating them out of money at poker?
Maybe…?
But so far a Lavinia drugging them with a specially brewed cup of oleander tea?
That is unlikely.
A quick sidebar about oleander to help explain:
First, it’s kind a plant - more like a shrub or small tree that grows in temperate and subtropical areas.
It actually has quite pretty pink, red or white blooms and all parts of the plant are known to be very toxic.
If ingested, it would taste very bitter - so, it would be kind of hard to not notice it in your cup of tea, but we’ll set that aside for a minute…
From Wikipedia, “Ingestion of larger amounts may cause nausea, vomiting, excess salivation, abdominal pain, bloody diarrhea and irregular heart rhythm. Prolonged contact with sap may cause skin irritation, eye inflammation and dermatitis.”
So someone with oleander poisoning is not going to go quietly in to the night the way it was described in the story of Lavinia Fisher
I don’t even think they’d pass out, it sounds like they’d be writhing in pain right up until the very end
So, while it’s a wild story, I don’t think it’s the kind of racket Lavinia and John were running…
While we’re at it, no evidence of beds dropping bodies in to a pit full of victim’s skeletons was ever found.
There were two bodies found in the woods after the fact…
One being a somewhat freshly dug grave of a white male, and the other being an older grave of an African American female,
But, no charges were ever brought in those cases, and neither was associated with the trial of Lavinia and John Fisher.
While we’re talking about charges, Lavinia is frequently credited with being “America’s first female serial killer.”
But for those keeping score, Lavinia was never convicted of killing anyone.
She was only charged with assault and in the end she was hung for highway robbery.
Which poses its own set of problems, as there was no evidence I found of her robbing anyone!
A short list of other things that aren’t true are that:
She wore her wedding dress to her execution - her entire home and all of her possessions had been burned, so that didn’t happen
The validity of her last words are questionable, along with the claim that she leapt from the scaffold on her own
Also the claim that she was buried at the Unitarian Church is unfounded
They apparently have a Lady in White that haunts their cemetery that they needed to account for, and figured Lavinia Fisher was as good as any…
So, how did it come to be that like 80% of Lavinia Fisher’s story, as we tell it today, is actually unsubstantiated lore?
And why is John Fisher’s role largely ignored?
From what I read, the two seemed pretty much in lockstep when it came to their deeds
The title of this episode is the Victorian Bonnie and Clyde, because despite the spotlight on Lavinia, to me it really seemed more like the story of a criminal couple that could be considered quite romantic in places
I mean, the way he protected her by surrendering his entire gang, then refused to leave her after their botched escape?
Ladies, if wanted to, he would, right?
To be clear, that is a joke, but seriously how did her story become so inflated?
First, it was novel for a woman to be executed in America, especially alongside her husband
Plus they were a young, attractive couple at that - no one ever suspects the pretty people, right?
So when this story blew up… it Blew Up.
Another theory is that the whole thing was a government cover up
It was rumored that the land where 6 Mile House stood was wanted to build a naval base on - and they were going to take it no matter what
So they had to vilify the Fishers to the point that no one would question their motives
And, as I understand it, what is now the old Charleston Naval Hospital does indeed sit on the land where Six Mile House once stood.
You can’t deny that’s a tiny bit suspicious.
Most of sensationalism of Lavina Fisher though, can be traced back to a Scottish businessman named Peter Neilson who in 1831 - over 10 years after the Fisher’s execution - published a book titled Six Years' Residence in America.
In it, Neilson claimed he’d witnessed the execution of the Fisher’s, then went on to exaggerate their story with tales of murder and skeletons in basements and poisoned tea from a beautiful woman
The problem though, is that he certainly did not witness the execution, or even reside in America during 1820 - he didn’t even arrive until 1822
So anything he wrote about Lavinia Fisher is pure speculation - and it was all actually only to boost book sales.
Either way, the tall tales simply spiraled from there.
Charleston has a robust tourism business and fully capitalizes on its southern gothic roots
A quick Google search returns at least two dozen different ghost tour businesses for the city, if not more.
I am curious to know what you think though.
Do you think Lavinia and her husband were wrongfully convicted?
Or do you think the rumors could very well be true?
If you head on over to Instagram, TikTok or YouTube @agoodnightforamurder, you can let me know there.
I’ve posted some photos of the old jail, a fun AI depiction of Lavinia on the scaffold and more on Instagram and TikTok.
You can also see the photos and source links for this episode blog on my website at agoodnightforamurder.com
While you’re on the website, you can sign up for the Good Night For a Murder newsletter.
Each month I send an episode round up, reveal of next month’s episodes and other goodies like extra Victorian society tips, book recommendations, and more
The bonus content for Housekeeper and Butler tier Patrons for this episode goes even deeper in to the lore of Lavinia Fisher, where I talk about claims and evidence of the ghost of Lavinia, plus a crazy story having to do with Lavinia’s skeleton!?
Listen through the outro music to hear a short preview of this Patreon bonus content
To subscribe to Patreon and learn more about the podcast you can visit agoodnightforamurder.com.
Also follow me on Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube @agoodnightforamurder
Please rate and review, and share with friends
Thank you for listening,
And I will talk to you again soon